Mr. Hinckley Attends His Last Dedication

Come on now, at least he didn't say that woman should fight to the death rather than be raped and that parents would prefer a coffin to an unchaste daughter. He also didn't talk about men who lived on the moon (and dressed like Quakers) like Breed 'Em Young...um, I mean Brigham Young. Or that blacks will get lighter and lighter skin as they become more righteous in the church.

I think you'll agree that his silence on any of these issues spoke far louder than his words.

You forgot one of my favorite "accomplishments" - publicly disavowing an LDS connection to the MMM (Mountain Meadows Massacre). Those Mormons who "did their duty" weren't mormons at all...they were native americans who were absolutely not working on behalf of Young...and, um, Young dismantled the cairn at Mountain Meadows because he didn't want the remains moved...um, yeah. That's it. And, Hink's goons sabotaged the production of September Dawn and kept it in legal battles for two years because the LDS Church was no way involved with the MMM. Is the stairs to the celestial kingdom are paved with bullshit, apparently. And,...how will he get in without three wives?

Wow. I hadn't heard about the September Dawn litigation. Can you point me to any references?

What is the church going to do now without a PR professional? I'm sure he has trained a few young missionaries to take his place.

I imagine that despite all your conviction that this(the Mormon Church) is the greatest hoax of all time, and that President Hinckley was a power-hungry dictator, you could not write what you wrote, without some reservation. You knew that what you said did not represent the will of that man. You may have talked yourself into to it time after time, but in reality you know what i know;that aside from religious conviction and belief that man was good. Something you probably wish you could say about yourself.

Oh, I get it. You're teaching me "judge not" by inverse example. I think the key phrase in your assessment of me is, "I imagine". You cannot have written what you did without imagining it.

Do me a favor, don't change the subject. I wrote about Hinckley. If you can find any inaccuracies in what I wrote, I'll happily retract them and sincerely thank you for correcting me.

Michael, this may be purely semantics, but maybe you should think of it as a scam more than a hoax. A hoax would be an accurate term for what Smith did with the sightings and rocks in the hat. A scam is what the LDS Church has become. A multi-million dollar scam.

You are exactly right, i did imagine it. Sorry for changing the subject but at least you are alive to defend yourself. Your arguements overall are pretty weak concerning his use of Huntsman's jet and the conference center. Gordon Hinckley wasn't exactly site-seeing on those international trips. The conference center was built without any sort of loan and nobody who knows anything about the LDS church can deny its humanitarian efforts. The membership to money given for humanitarian purposes ratio might be the best in the world.

As for the things he said in the wallace interview everyone can watch it and judge for themselves. And the performing miracles thing is easy to argue because he did things that faithful men and women consider miracles. Taking the Church to where it is now is a miracle in itself.

Are you arguing that it is immoral to debate the morality of a person after they die? Do you really want to open that can of worms?

You can call my arguments weak, but the facts remain. There are still hungry and homeless in the world. Could the money used for a mall, a conference center or for maintaining a private jet have possibly been used for a worthier cause? The answer seems obvious.

For how your church lets the left hand and everyone else know about its marvelous welfare program, you're sure making a grossly inefficient mess of care for the poor.

For example, if your god and prophets really want to defeat homelessness, why don't you start rotating Sabbaths? Your churches sit empty most of the week. If you had three or four different wards attending services every day of the week, you'd have enough empty buildings for all of Utah's homeless and plenty of room to spare. Seems a ridiculously simple fix, but it'll never happen. Maybe you should ask yourself why.

As bad as that is, lousy treatment of the poor is not my primary complaint against your church. If it weren't for the unwarranted and irrational belief that some supernatural bully in the sky is on your side and wants you to change all the world to a homogeneous vanilla Wonder Bread place where no one disagrees with you, I'd have a lot less to complain about.

I can understand your point. Of course sacrifices in other areas could bring greater temporal assistance to the poor. But, what Mormon theology comes down to is doing your best and letting the Savior make up for the rest. I know we are far from perfect but i strongly believe that our welfare program is something amazing and unmatched by any other religious organization. Not to attack you personally but couldn't you sacrifice a few luxuries to help the poor? couldn't i? couldn't everyone?

My point is that your savior is not making up for the rest because he's not there. There are still homeless. Why does your god allow children to suffer in spite of your best effort. What possible reason can there be for intentionally causing children to starve?

Even if you could objectively prove that you have the best charitable organization in the world, that doesn't even begin to support your claim that some god exists and only directs your church.

Why do you need a big buildings and a god demanding ten percent (plus) to do good things for people? There are plenty of secular charities out there where people donate their time and money of their own free will--not because of their lust for heaven or fear of fiery hell. What is the more moral position?

It is true that some obey out of fear and others for the lust of heaven. Others obey in gratitude and love. I will not say that i always obey for the right reasons because i don't. The moral objective is providing a better, happier life and the hope of something fantastic after we die. I would never be so naive as to think that something i say will change your views. I just want to give your blog readers side b. It would be a lot easier to make a point to a fellow christian. It is interesting that that is what happens when mormons lose their faith; they lose all of it. They usually do not join some evangelical movement or become catholic. They just decide God does not exist and that life is temporal. That seems to be the easy way out because it removes moral responsibility. I try to do what is right not to win heaven or avoid hell, i do it out of love for my Creator and Savior. We try and avoid self-interest although it be very dificult.

The only right reasons to obey I can think of would be if you had compelling evidence that a)your god exists and b)that you know what he wants, and c) that doing what he wants is in your best interest.

My decision to leave the church may be a lot of things, but it is NOT the easy way out. I have former friends who won't speak to me anymore. It has done considerable damage to my relationship with my parents. It has cost me in job interviews. I have even lost a job because of it.

Tell me how having some invisible god in the sky forgive you for your sins is anything remotely akin to taking responsibility. What utter rubbish! When I hurt someone, I have no one to repent to. My mistakes are my own, and let me tell you what--it makes me a hell of a lot more careful.

I didn't "just decide" there was no god. It's that no one has been able to convince me that there was a god. So go ahead, convince me. Give me a good reason to believe and I will. No one has yet, but who knows? Maybe you'll be the one.

I dont mean to change the subject, but this entire argument reminds me of one of the only people i can truly say are "my hero". Namely Norman Borlaug http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug Now, if hinkley went around working THAT hard to be credited with saving THAT many people (norman has been credited with saving over 1 BILLION lives in his lifetime) i would be happy to speak loudly and proudly of his name.

Instead, as doug as pointed out, he has spent an estimated 2.5-3 BILLION on a mall. countless billions more on un-needed buildings/land/temples/private-enterprises/etc. Sorry mike, its a corporation running a scam posing as a religion that captures people in making them unwilling to admit once they find they are wrong and unable to process why. Its sad really.

Life saver or mall builder. Hmmm. I don't think that's off subject at all.

How is it that one man could outdo a god's best shot at improving the human condition? Besides, if you believe in God, you have to accept he created this mess on purpose, and even though he supposedly has the means to make it all stop right now, he is unwilling.

When it comes down to the Church being a scam to acquire financial gain and power, i have a hard time buying it because i don't see who is taking advantage. the salaries of the general authorites of the Church are usually a lot lower than their previous jobs. most make financial sacrifice to serve in the LDS church. President Hinckley wasn't exactly buying mercedes and taking weekend trips to maui.

The downtown mall is an investment. The Church makes investments. It isn't wrong to invest money for a greater return in order to furher the work. No one is taking advantage of anybody. It is a simple investment.

I cannot convince you that there is a God. No one can but yourself. I could never try to explain how i know because to you it would be "absurd." it wouldn't be enough to say i know, but i do. I know it just as well as any man on this earth.

God will not interfere with man's right to choose. your perspective needs to go beyond the confines of time. when you can see the big picture, suffering, pain and fear all make more sense and are more bearable.

faith is tough. i don't blame you for not having much. but you can spare those that do. you have no moral obligation to draw people away from what makes them happy

The downtown mall is an investment. Businesses make investments. Businesses are taxed. Ergo your church should be taxed. Great.

It is wrong to trick people out of their hard-earned money in order to promote work based on promises that can't be proven. I know more than a few people who barely get by day to day even in retirement. Why? Because rather than invest their money themselves, they gave away more than they could afford (but exactly what they were commanded) to a multi-billion dollar organization that didn't really need it.

You do not know there is a god. You believe without evidence. In other words, you have faith. If you knew, you could show me a repeatable method by which you obtained your knowledge. Instead, you try to beat me down with ridiculous accusations such as “I don't want people to be happy” or that “faith is tough”.

Faith is not tough. It is an intellectually lazy cop out. Faith says, “I don't know how I'm right or if I'm wrong, but I chose to believe anyway.” At its worst it says, “I don't want to know, I'm unwilling to do the work to find out, and I'll do everything in my power to make my opposition shut up and conform.”

It's not at all that I feel obligated to take people away from what makes them happy. I want them to be happy. It is in my best interest however, to stand up to people who would curtail my right to pursue happiness. Here in Utah, because of religiously inspired legislation a person can't buy a car on Sunday or pick up a bottle of wine at the grocery store. In some cases they aren't even allowed to choose who they'll marry. (Apparently your god hates homosexuals, but he is ok with first cousins marrying).

Unfortunately, it doesn't stop there. As brilliantly pointed out by Sam Harris, there are people like you leading our country who subscribe to the apocalyptic world view that says not only is end of the world is near, but it is inevitable and even desirable. I will stand up. Our very survival as a species depends on it.

So for now I'll accept your confession that you cannot rationally defend your god's existence. As always, I still maintain that if you give me good enough reason, I'll humbly return to full membership in your church. But you haven't convinced me yet, and that is your failure, not mine.

I will repeat; my intention is not to convince you that there is a god, or that he directs this Church. Although I would be happy if those things were to happen. I just want to make it clear that your view of the the Church is not the only one. I defend my faith with as much zeal as you try to bring it down. I realize that this blog is of no real consequence and that those that read it have no real influence on the world. But those that do read it should hear side b like i previously stated. These comments are not for you.

As far as proving that there is a god, i can not do it, so you might as well retract your invitation. I cannot even prove that you exist, or that i exist. I would never venture to say that i can prove to you that God exists! But i have proved it to myself through a certain type of empirical reasoning, that you, in your current state of mind, would never comprehend. There is, in reality, a sixth sense that can be used to find eternal truths. what i have experienced was not emotion or self-deception but a real encounter with deity. Obviously that sounds absurd but most poeple never learn to use that sixth sense in its full capacity because they rely too much on the other five. Just like a man realizes the power of hearing when he loses his sight, so have i realized the power of that sixth sense when i learned not to solely rely on the other five.

if there really was this "sixth sense" and not just a very obvious mental delusion. Then this would be repeatable with all people. As such, there would only be mormons and not pagans, catholics, buddhists, etc that also claim the exact same thing you are attempting to argue. There are people who speak exactly the same when speaking of things great or horrific using their definition of faith or god to promote whatever ideology they want.

Zealotry is not a measure of reason or right. You would be just in calling the people who blow themselves up in shopping malls or flying planes into buildings zealots, but you'd be insane to claim they have the moral high ground just because of their strength of conviction.

I find it amusing that you try avoid any rational discussion of my ideas by claiming that my site is of no real consequence. I suspect that the 2,700 people that come here every month would tend to disagree with you, but hey, what do I know?

Of course, the number of people behind an idea is immaterial to its bearing on its truth. It is obvious by your continued responses to me that that this site matters at least to you, so in that much I have succeeded.

Oh, ok. A sixth sense. I get it. But that's so 1990's. My seventh sense tells me that you're full of shit. If you weren't so hung up on your "six" senses you'd understand that.

You have exactly as much evidence for your sixth sense as I do my seventh, which coincidentally is the same amount of evidence you have given me for the existence of your god: NONE.

You believe for no quantifiable reason. Period.

This is an age-old arguement that millions of men much more educated then you and i have had. I have never wanted to prove to you how i know that God exists because i knew you wouldn't understand. You asked so i told you. i didn't expect you to buy it either. I cannot, and will not, try and prove that God exists. But i can defend the morals of a just and good man and that is why i originally made a comment. there is plenty of evidence to back that up.

That sixth sense is what religious people call revelation. Not believing in God would make that impossible for you to understand. I repeat for the 3rd time, i cannot prove God exists. You cannot prove he doesn't. And you too, have failed to provide any info backing your point that God doesn't exist. I would never waste my time comparing evidences with you. we would never arrive at a solution. I'm i backing down? Sure. I have said what i wanted to.
Thanks for always responding.

No, this is an age-old argument that you are losing. I have no burden to disprove every new random inane assertion that crosses my path. You bring the claim, you need to bring the evidence to support that claim.

For example, I hereby claim that I am the god you have been worshiping all these years. This higher, or seventh sense is superior to revelation in that it cometh from me, and I am real, sayeth the LORD your GOD, even the great and eternal Douglas.

You cannot disprove that I am your god. Therefore, by your own logic, I am to be revered. Feel free to send me your prayers in email or comments. Given that I am a personal god, I will continue to respond to you directly. Whatever and ever, amen.

I'm an infrequent visitor to your blog, but felt the need to respond to your comment about Gordon B. Hinckley that "the world is better off without him." Seems to me your lumping him in with such despots as Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Saddam. Bad form, Mr. Humphries. Bad form.

While it's obvious you're a highly intelligent and talented individual, your comment about Pres. Hinckley reveals both your ignorance of the man and your hubris and arrogance.

You continue to sit comfortably on the sidelines of cynicism, taking potshots at a remarkable 97-year-old and "dancing on his grave" if you will. President Hinckley embodied just the opposite of cynicism. He wore out his life in the service of others--"strengthening the feeble knees and lifting the heads that hang down". He built bridges to other faiths and nations and made a genuine difference in helping to relieve both physical and spiritual suffering the world over. Don't know about your world, but my world will sorely miss him.

It might seem to you, but I sure as hell didn't say that, did I? I'm not dancing on his grave so much as saying there are people in the world who are far more deserving of our admiration.

The way I see it, there were only two ways it could have been with Hinckley. Either he saw his god and was afraid to talk about it, or he never saw god and knew it.

One would make him a coward, the other would make him a liar. Unlike Joseph Smith before him, he never once publicly claimed to have directly spoken to his god, so I am forced to assume the latter. I stand by my original statement.

I am not very familiar with your blog Mr. Humphries but I have read enough. I know you are familiar with the song "The Wise Man Built His House upon the Rock". You obviously did not internalize the lyrics however. You are the picture perfect example of the man who "built his house upon the sand". You are being tossed on the waves of self denial and selfishness. You hide behind cynicism. You wield it like a shield to protect yourself from your own conscience. Like so many before you who have fallen away you convince yourself that there is no God. You then choose to attack the light and truth that you once embraced instead of look in the mirror.

So what's your story Mr. Humphries? Did someone offend you at church? Or was it that you wanted to be able to buy your "wine coolers at grocery stores" and didn't want anyone telling you that you shouldn't? It's all the same, whatever the excuse may be.

You have revealed too much sir. You are like an open book. Everything you say is so utterly typical of someone who tries to justify his own selfishness. It is easier for you to be convinced that there is no God than it is to admit that you are wrong. That you messed up. Does believing that God does not exist really help you sleep at night? Does railing and attacking the Prophet of God really make you feel better? I know that it only feeds the furnace of bitterness and hate that you hide in your heart.
Not hate for God, nor for His Prophet, or His church, but for yourself and your own imperfections and weaknesses.

I have seen so many like you. So many who aren't willing to accept responsibility for their own actions. Who choose the "easy way out" and shrink at the challenges that life throws at them. You have chosen this path sir. Are you going to continue down it or accept the hand and help of "He who is mighty to save"?

No matter how hard you try and deny it it will not change the fact that the day will come when you will stand before your Savior and know as I know now that He lives. That He loved you enough to suffer beyond what you and I are capable of understanding. You will know even then that He still loves you. But you will also know that you chose to spit in His face and mock him and attack those trying to do His will instead of accept Him and do your best to follow Him.

C.S. Lewis wrote "I believe the gates of hell are locked from the inside". It's time for you to open the doors and come back, and stop trying to explain away and pass off as "absurd" the things you know to be true.

I know you just felt it. Why are you fighting it even now?

First of all, thanks for visiting. But I have to say, is that it Jordan? Is that all you've got?

Since it appears there's nothing in my original post that you could actually refute, you've fallen back to attacking me instead (love thy neighbor, indeed). Frankly, I don't see how that makes your god or prophet any more real.

As for your issues with me personally, would it hurt you to sincerely ask me why I left, rather than assume you already know, or do you just not care?

ROFMAO, thank you jordan for reminding me how silly mormon arguments are for why they feel people leave mormonism.

ahh, that was a refreshing laugh. Now on to what you commonly refer to as "the meat". The reason why the major numbers of people leave mormonism are frankly due to historical issues with the church as well as NUMEROUS issues stemming from the belief that the BoM is a historical document. If you want to discuss some of these things im happy to provide mormon (since i know you'll deny validity of anything written by someone "critical" of mormonism) sources showing so many issues it will make your head spin.

Doug, i hope you dont mind me putting my personal email on here, but its invaderzim01@gmail.com So feel free to message me jordan. I look forward to informing you on, what is most likely, information youve never heard before.

"They just decide God does not exist and that life is temporal. That seems to be the easy way out because it removes moral responsibility.:

I so differ with you...when one believes that all is in god's hands that is removing responsibility. That is what is wrong with religion...it encourages one to shirk responsibility for one's own actions.

"God will not interfere with man's right to choose."

Why? If he is so perfect why would he create something so flawed?

"I realize that this blog is of no real consequence and that those that read it have no real influence on the world."

I BEG YOUR PARDON! IT IS BLOGS LIKE THIS THAT ARE PROVIDING THE BASIS FOR INVESTIGATION.

In fact, it always amazes me how many mormons troll these sites. I think you are investigating as well. Good, it's about time you started thinking for yourself..even if the prophet has done the thinking for you.

Well spoken, Interested. Thanks for stopping by.

yeah, he still hasent emailed me. I think he was just an attempted fly-by troll trying to say the thing they all say "i KNOW its true so you must be doing something wrong not to know it too". Rather than actually wanting to discuss things since the argument is so one sided against him.